Pig races to ward off Mosque?!?

Yep, you read that right. According to this article in the Katy Times, the local Islamic Association has purchased some land on which they plan to build a mosque “community center”. [It seems the Muslims are following the Christians in renaming their places of worship and why not, we live in a postmodern world. Therefore, Christians don’t go to church on Sundays apparently they go to “Christian Centers”.]

So the KIA (Katy Islamic Association) is going to build this thing and there is some opposition from the landowners around the area. The opposition is not about religion, it’s about the traffic and congestion that this place will bring to this otherwise quiet place in Katy. Craig Baker, who owns property adjoining the KIA lot and also shares the same name as the street (Baker Street, sax riff comes in).

Mr. Baker is planning on hosting pig races on Fridays. Big deal right? Pig races in Katy, pride marches through San Franciso, right? Well it just so happens that the Muslim holy day is Friday and we all know that Muhammed told them to stay away from pigs (that he got this from Moses we’ll leave for another day.)

Frankly, I don’t see what the big deal is for either side. The KIA has to recognize that they can’t stop Mr. Baker from having speedin’ swine on his property. Mr. Baker has to recognize that the KIA has the right to build their recruitment center/mosque “community center” next to his 40 acres.

I can’t wait for the ACLU to come barging in and tell Mr. Baker not to run his pigs. Possibly asking him to leave the property his family has owned since the early 1800s (of course the ACLU would say it was never theirs, the land belongs to nature). The ACLU in Katy, now I know what our community has been missing besides the world’s best soccer fans.

40 Responses to Pig races to ward off Mosque?!?

  1. NORMITA says:


  2. ramcam6 says:

    I think Craig Baker should have a whole pig barbeque every Friday to go along with the pig races. With lots of smoke and as big of banner signs as the law allows inviting people to the weekly festivities.

  3. Dick says:

    Nice AP article about Craig Baker in the paper today. Hey Craig–worried about looking like an idiot?? TOO LATE!! Bigotry is alive and well in Texas.

  4. Lazaro says:

    It would be someone at an East Coast university who dropped the ‘bigot’ label on Mr. Baker, that wasn’t predictable or anything.

  5. Sidney says:

    I actually live in Katy and Baker and his bigots can have the pig races, the Muslims here are very nice people, and as far as congestion goes there is a huge church in the area already. As the local officials said they all have to use officiers to direct traffic.

    Love them racist bigots still surviving in Katy, TX.

  6. Lazaro says:

    Sidney, how is Mr. Baker racist? I might consider the ‘bigot’ label but racist? Is he singling out one race? I thought Islam was a religion, silly me…

    By the way, ‘racist bigots’ survive everywhere and anywhere there are human beings, a consequence of a fallen world, I’m afraid.

  7. Amad says:

    Lazaro, anti-semitism, which is slur on the religion of Judaism, has always been treated in the contexts of racism. Hope that clarifies why Islamophobia can and will continue to be discussed in some channels of racism discussions.

    I am interested to see how this Baker dude thinks the pig races will affect the mosque plans? I mean people will come and pray inside, protected by the mosque walls from the noise and the smell. The symbolism may be of some substance, but the affect will be minimal at best.

    As for the poor neighbors who are complaining about the mosque traffic… well, I guess they’ll have to worry pig race traffic as well. Katy, thanks for letting the world know that you ain’t Houston quite yet, that you probably cheered the last lynching in Jasper, did ya?

    Musings of a Muslim Mind

  8. Lazaro says:

    Amad, thank you for your comment. It has long been a question of mine as to why “anti-semitism” refers exclusively to Judaism.

    After all, the descendants of Shem are not limited to the Jewish people, who by the way, are not a race but a tribe (well 12 of them but who’s counting). I find it very interesting that the trouble in the Middle East has some very early origins and stems from a desperate decision made by a doubting barren woman.

    Islam is not a race as far as I know (being a Muslim you know more than I do on the matter), but given the penchant of postmodern culture (some channels of it anyway) for reassigning definitions, it does not surprise me to see one more word (“racism”) lose its true meaning.

    Why would the good people of Katy cheer for the death of a man at the hands of 3 white supremacists? I had no idea that Katy wanted to be Houston…

  9. Patricia says:

    I’ve been a resident of Katy for the past 20 years. I’ve raised my family here and have enjoyed many aspects of the community. I am an open minded Christian, and think what we could use more of here in Katy is tolerance. Tolerance of other religions, people from other places, people of different races. Open your minds and your hearts, we are really not that different. These folks just want a place to worship with like minds as many of us do. Go out and learn a little about them and what they believe. DON’T just listen to the news. Go out and see for yourself. Get out of your comfort zone, that’s where life really begins.

  10. Lazaro says:

    Patricia, thanks for your comment. An open-minded Christian? I don’t know any other way a true Christian can be. We are to love others, if we don’t, how can we have compassion enough to tell them the Good News?

    I don’t have to “see for myself” to know that their religion is false. Any religion which rejects Christ as God is false. Yes they believe He was a great prophet and was sinless but reject Him as Lord. By His own words, because they reject Him they reject God.

    That being said, in this country, the KIA has as much right to worship as anyone else (as false as their religion might be). That same freedom also extends to Mr. Baker to hold his races as offensive as they might seem.

    If we listened to the news for our religious instruction, we’d all be in trouble. They know as much about it as they do about objectivity.

  11. petr says:

    running pig has nothing to do with muslim. christian icons has been stepped on, spitted on, and made carricature every day. are we offended? yes. are we mad? yes. muslim should take a bit of humility, get inside their mosque and pray for more humility. if they go out and see a pig on friday, look the other way.

  12. It happens all over.... says:

    It’s in the paper, here in Norway too.
    I read about this “little” story. It is actually just a little story, but in the “big” picture, the pieces are falling together.
    In Arendal, a little city in the southern part of Norway, on the children’s floor of the hospital, one kid had drawn a picture of a little pig, with colors and everything, just a cute little children’s drawing.
    This drawing was on the door, and it happened to be a Muslim kid there as well.
    So what happened, well you guessed right. The parents of the kid demanded the drawing removed.
    Because it was an offence to them.
    And what did the Norwegian family do? As the nice people we are, they removed it for not to offend their new citizens.
    This was some years ago. Now we know better….
    You see, it’s written in their “book”, the Muslims are going to take over the whole world, and I am not kidding.
    They are just like fungus, they are spreading themselves all over the western world, and slowly, but surely, they “got” us.
    There are thousands of these little happenings all over, all the time.
    And they always -always- get the western people to look bad, because “they are not doing anything wrong.”
    So, don’t let them step on your toes, listen to Bob M. “stand up for your rights”.
    Because THEY should adjust to their new country, NOT the other way around.
    Mr. Baker, you have support from all over, happy New Year everybody, time here is 23:57 🙂
    Tom G.

  13. بدتمیز says:

    Not believing in Jesus as Lord is a false religion? 😮 For Christianity I had very different idea. I had the idea that they are nice and humble and they believe in dialouge and talks. Seem like I was wrong. As far as i know Muslims consider some one who doesn’t believe in Prophet Muhammad as non Muslim not as non believer (unlike lazaro). Muslims never said that Christianity is a false or fake religion to be very honest Muslims children have been taught that Christianity and Buddhism are religions specifically known for tolerance, love and care seem like that soon Christian world will go against every other religion and wont let them pray. I never believed that Jews had to claim Israel because Christian world didn’t tolerate them now I let all of the other peoples decide is it correct or not.
    Dont read the koran to find somethin suitable to defend what so ever you have to say against Islam. there is other stuff too you completely ignore. never mind its human nature.
    I don’t see any reason that KIA would argue MR Baker doing something in his own backyard. and If you do find something please be specific that what n how it happened. I couldn’t get why would you show that u didn’t mean to write recruitment center and wont remove it. America is known for liberty not for narrow minded thinkings I have no hard feelings for any body but I do pray that Christian do get the true spirit of Christianity.

  14. Lazaro says:

    Thank you بدتمیز for your comment. A couple of things.

    By Jesus’ own words (John 14:6), He is the only way to the Father. You said, “For Christianity I had very different idea” from whence does this idea come from?

    Jesus claimed to be God, so if one rejects Him one rejects God, if this is ‘intolerant’ and not ‘humble’ so be it. I’m going to put my trust on He who rose from the dead and not on what man’s mistaken idea of what tolerance is.

    What Muslims say regarding Christians is quite irrelevant, what God says regarding those who choose to follow His Son is what matters.

    The Jews were given that land by God Himself in a promise given to Abraham then to Isaac. Moses took them to the cusp but it was Joshua who took them to that promised land. I find it curious that the Jews claim this land for this reason but at the same time chose to ignore the faithfulness of Abraham and chose to live in revelry and debauchery.

    I have not read the Quran and have no plans to do so. When one finds Truth (rather when Truth finds one) there’s no need to seek it where it’s not to be found.

    Human nature huh? بدتمیز, human nature is the reason we need a Redeemer. Adam’s sin caused us all to be born and be steeped in sin. His rebellion has been the reason for the sorry state that has been human history. Jesus came, lived, died, and rose again to redeem what was lost as a result of Adam’s fall.

    Like I have stated before, the KIA has every right to build their community center. We don’t live in a Christian theocracy (thank God for that) after all. Mr. Baker also has every right to do what he’s doing provided he keeps it within the confines of his property. Legally, there’s nothing wrong with Baker is doing. Morally, I’m not sure a pig race is the Christian response, in fact I don’t believe it’s the way Christians should respond by antagonizing those who are lost. By doing so, we interfere with the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in bringing Muslims to repentance.

    “I do pray that Christian do get the true spirit of Christianity.” بدتمیز,, just what is the ‘true spirit of Christianity’? Have you read the Bible? Would not the ‘true spirit of Christianity’ be found within it?

  15. بدتمیز says:

    I see no reason to raise more questions and then getting out of the topic. I appreciate your thinking and do have my concerns over your post and don’t agree with some of your words.
    a friendly advice is either read the Quran just like you would read a book or don’t claim 🙂
    about Bible, (unlike you) I must not say anything I respect the Bible just like I do respect all other Holy Books.

  16. Mr. Lazaro
    You wrote “Any religion which rejects Christ as God is false”. How could a man (of course very pious) born out of a woman ( of course very pious) can be God because was neither son nor father to any one.

    This is the revelation, about holy Mary (may peace be upon her) and Jesus (may peace be upon him), in which Muslims believe. It was translated from Arabic to English by Mermaduke Pickthal.

    And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
    And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
    She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
    He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
    She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
    He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
    And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.
    And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
    Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,
    And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.
    So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.
    Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
    O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
    Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
    He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
    And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
    And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
    Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
    Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
    It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
    And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path.

  17. Lazaro says:

    Iftikhar, thank you for the comment and for Mohammed’s version of Mary and Jesus.

    Before I get to your question as to how Jesus of Nazareth is God, we must address the issue what divine revelation is.

    We both are obviously men of faith. You have faith that Mohammed really saw and heard Gabriel give him the final and authoritative revelation from God. I have faith that Jesus of Nazareth is God Himself and died on the cross for the sins of the world per the words of the Old and New Testaments (the Bible).

    I don’t believe Mohammed received any divine revelation because then I’d also have to believe that Joseph Smith (who claimed the angel Moroni gave him the final revelation) also heard from God. What do you believe about what the Bible says about Jesus? I know what you believe about Jesus, that He was pious and born of a virgin but He is not God? Obviously the Bible (which claims Jesus is God) and the Quran (which claims He isn’t) cannot both be true, so why believe the Quran over the Bible?

    As to Jesus being God, it’s called the Trinity. A doctrine culled out from the Old (Isaiah 9:6) and New Testaments(John 1,8/Philippians 2, among others). Of course these Scripture texts mean nothing to you if you think the original texts have been altered…

  18. Lazaro says:

    I have no intention of reading the Quran for the reasons already stated. Even if I were to treat it as any other book, it would be way down on the list of books in the queue.

    If you respect the Bible do you take what it says seriously?

  19. Let us first take up your theory. What is the definition of God? Was he a human being and died as human being? Then who was and is controlling the universe?
    Let me tell you also that I do not believe that Jesus died at the cross. Jesus was protected by the real God (not imaginary) and lifted to heavens. He will again be sent to this world.
    Then there is difference in you and me as human beings. While you do not want to read Quraan, I read Bible when I was a teen-ager and tried to understad it. I would not like to discuss futher because you have closed your eyes to any thing except what you have already seen.

  20. Lazaro says:

    The Trinity, Iftikhar, the Trinity… God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Not 3 gods but One. not 1+1+1 =3 but 1x1x1=1

    It’s a mystery and beyond our comprehension. Isaiah 9 is a prophecy regarding Messiah (the coming King) and within the prophecy, the Messiah is called, “Everlasting Father.” I don’t know how God is 3 persons I just know that is the case for that is what the Bible makes very clear. Again it boils down whether or not you accept the Bible as from God.

    What of Jesus’ claims to be God? You don’t believe that Jesus died at the cross based on what ONE man said, a man who was not even a witness to the crucifixion, and I’m the one who has closed my eyes?

    Jesus of Nazareth died under Pontius Pilate, that is historical fact if you can’t accept that it’s your decision but you can’t change history. Speaking of which, compare how Mohammed spread his religion and how the Apostles spread Christ’s message. The former through violence the latter through love, acceptance, suffering, and in the face of persecution, in other words following their Master’s commands.

    Iffy, why would I want to read the Quran? The Holy Spirit who lives in me and lives inside every true follower of God has declared it to be a falsehood (at best) and a deliberate lie (at worst). I encourage you to read the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you for the words therein will be foolishness to you unless they are spiritually discerned by the Holy Spirit.

    It is the Holy Spirit (who is God by the way) who spoke through the Apostle Paul when he wrote this:
    “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed” Galatians 1:8

    Hmmm, let’s see Gabriel (an angel) supposedly spoke to Mohammed and Moroni(another angel) supposedly spoke to Joseph Smith, and they both claimed to have a new and the final revelation… both of these men are accursed Iftikhar and awaiting judgment. Why would I read the writings of accursed men? You might as well ask me to read David Koresh’s writings.

    You still haven’t answered why you believe Mohammed over Joseph Smith. Is Gabriel more credible than Moroni?

    Actually there is no difference as human beings between the 2 of us Iffy. We were both born into sin and both are in need of a Savior. I stand redeemed from my old life and I pray that you will one day accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross so that you too may come into new life and be born again.

  21. Ms. Leslie of Ferntucky says:

    Ever since I can remember, I studied religions and philosophies from all over the world. I abandoned my parents’ faith at 7 years of age due to the hypocrisy I was seeing within the walls of the Church. I refused to be confirmed in the faith and swore that I would embarrass my parents if I were made to confirm my faith in the Church.

    Faith is what keeps Mankind from becoming sub-human and sub-animal. Sure one might argue that it is the opiate of the masses but what I have witnessed in the past year has brought me back to faith, but this time, faith in Allah.

    I saw the worst kind of animal behavior in the Church of different denominations for two years straight. Yes Mankind is weak…full of prejudice and hatred for one another…which is why Mankind should now be begging for Mercy from the Creator of the Universe. The Church nearly killed me out of fear of the unknown and fear of those from the outside knowing it’s true nature.

    I believe that when someone is hurt by another’s actions they must be helped in some way. The Christian faith taught me that the people in the Christian faith can do whatever they want even if it is pure evil, because they are forgiven. So, with the forgiveness of God upon them they can go out and do more and more evil. What a perfect solution for Satan.

    I am grateful to Allah to continuously show me the Right Path.

  22. Lazaro says:

    Wow Les, hypocrisy within the walls of the church, what a novel concept. Wherever you find human beings, there will be hypocrisy even in a mosque.

    Thankfully no one can be forced to follow Christ. A forced ‘conversion’ is no conversion at all. We all know decisions 7 year olds make are full of wisdom right?

    You are wrong, what separates us from the animals is that we are made in God’s image. Since you profess faith in Allah, you worship an idol, a god of man’s design, in your case a man by the name of Mohammed. In other cases it’s Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell or pick your false prophet.

    I don’t doubt that things happen within the Church which are antithetical to what Jesus taught. Again, the Church is composed of human beings and naturally we are imperfect. Forgiven yes, perfect no. Obviously you did not receive proper instruction as a child in the way of Christ (I didn’t either).

    His Forgiveness is NOT a license to sin. It’s not what Christ teaches and it’s not what the Bible teaches. Any person (self-proclaimed Christian or not) who tells you otherwise is very deluded. I suggest you read Chapters 5 and 6 of the book of Romans to clear up any questions on the matter.

    You said, “The Christian faith taught me that the people in the Christian faith can do whatever they want even if it is pure evil, because they are forgiven.”

    I’m not sure who taught you about Christ but if you are going to learn about a faith why not go straight to the source, Christ Himself? He left some writings behind which you might want to read, not to mention the promised Holy Spirit to help us understand these writings.

    Thank you for your comment and I’m grateful to God that He has steered you this way that you might seek Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

  23. Ms. Leslie of Ferntucky says:

    Thank you Mr. Lazaro. In humility, I examine what you are saying with great thoroughness. I am praying to Allah to give me the wisdom to write what I truly wish to express.

    Being raised in parts of the United States where there are a lot of people from other cultures, I learned respect for all religions and cultures. Sometimes I would be angry with law enforcement because they would treat one culture differently than another and the laws only applied to one culture and not the other.

    I agree that when in the United States there should be one set of laws that all else abide by.

    We have laws that respect different religions and those should be abided by. Prejuduces come in all shapes and sizes….as a culture we are prejudiced against the elderly, speaking in general terms, the sick, the handicapped, the overweight, those too light in skin color, too dark in skin color, not the “right” schools,….and we worship Hollywood, our stars and our football players.
    If we take offense at something…I have always learned to block it out. To be polite, to be kind, to be warm hearted but at the same time, to block out that which offends me. Not to demand that something be done about it….but to go about my business and know that we all have to get a long someway or another way. We all come from different backgrounds and I believe that we are probably one of the most culturally diverse countries in the world….which has incredible challenges.

    I am descended from those who arrived on the Mayflower and from one of our Founding Fathers. My father fought in WWII as a commander of one of the most famous battleships in WWII history. I am also descended from a Native American Indian tribe, but one who distinguished itself by being the only tribe with the first written language. My family has a very long history in this country…and for years I felt a great pride in being an American.

    Now, here comes the difficult part. My country turned on me like hungry dogs going after a dead carcass. Those who lived their lives for their churches literally tried to kill me. I was in shock. I was being burned at the proverbial stake without knowing what I was being charged with…..on the Altars of Science and Religion.

    It was those people who believed in Allah, who saw something in me, who cared enough, to pull me out and give me new life. I was at the point, where I hated everyone and everything. I trusted no one. Mankind in my mind, was something to destroy completely and make sure it never left planet Earth to infect the rest of the Universe with it’s cancerous DNA.

    I judge by the fruit of a religion and it’s people. If you want converts….then you clean up what is within your Churches and your Mosques and Temples. LIVE your religion or GET OFF of it completely and do not hide behind the mask of being pious. I was shown nothing but kindness from the Muslims…..and it was then, that I made a decision.

    Allah is no different than your God. The foundation of Islamic teachings begins with God whom Muslims call Allah. The name Allah comes from the Arabic language and means literally “the one and only God” as opposed to any old god with a small “g” as in Paganism. The Qur’aan teaches that Allah is the same God that spoke to the Christians and the Jews. Therefore, when Muslims speak about God, they have in mind that it is the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed. Even Arab Christians who speak the Arabic language say Allah when they talk of God. The Spanish word for God is Dios, yet nobody makes the claim that Dios is a different God than God. In German, God is Gott.

    The Qur’aan states it this way: Tell the Jews and Christians, We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you in the Torah and Gospel; Our God and your God is one and it’s to Him we surrender….Chapter 29, Verse 46 Qur’aan.

    Thank you for your concern and your comments.
    Most Humbly,
    A Servant of Allah

  24. Laz says:

    Ms. Leslie, thank you for the thought you have put into the crafting of your response.

    Thank you for sharing your family background which goes back to the beginnings of this country. The bit about worshipping football players might have hit a bit too close to home here at this blog 🙂

    While I do not know the details of how people were trying to kill you and will not dare presume anything. I’m sorry you had it so rough.

    In the paragraph where you describe how the followers of Allah gave you a new life you unconsciously point out the major distinction between following Christ and every other religion on the face of the planet. Every other religion involves man trying to do good works to get right with their respective deity or deities. They’re about what we as mortals can do to be right before a Righteous and Holy God.

    In the case of Christianity, the Righteous and Holy God becomes man and come down to dwell among us for the purpose of dying on the cross for the sins of the world. Then to rise from the dead to show triumph over the hold that death has on us all. That is the gospel plain and simple.

    Mankind isn’t the problem, sin living in us is the problem. It’s a disease that has spread from Adam to the rest of us. The hope of Christianity is that Christ lived a sinless life and through his death and resurrection conquered sin and gives those who follow Him new life. People don’t give people new life, Jesus Christ gives people new life. Makes us new creations, the Greek word used in the Bible is “metamorphoses” surely you are familiar with that word.

    I couldn’t agree more about living out what you believe. Faith without works is dead, the Bible says that. Jesus says that through out the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew. In fact Jesus says you will recognize His followers by the fruit they produce. If it’s rotten fruit then the “trees” producing it are not His followers. If it’s good fruit then they are. This being said are you going to tell me that just because Buddhist monks are nice welcoming people then they also have the true religion (even though they don’t believe in God?) Jesus also said that God’s true worshipers would worship Him in Spirit and Truth. Truth, Leslie, something which Jesus Christ said He was. He claimed to be Truth incarnate. Was He lying?

    To be fair, we are not perfect. Even after receiving God’s grace through Jesus Christ we sin. We fall into destructive patterns of behaviour and thought. We confess our sin before a Holy God and turn away from sin. We also should ask for the forgiveness of those who we have hurt. All the while, we know that we are forgiven because Christ died on the cross. This is not a license to sin because our forgiveness cost Jesus His life. Our forgiveness had a heavy, heavy price paid for by His blood. If Christianity was not explained to you in this way then you were not told about Christianity but rather about some man-made version of it.

    I’m sorry Leslie but Islam’s god is not the God Christians worship. “Allah” might be the Arabic word for “God” but when a Moslem says “Allah” he is not talking about the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus Christ. If he is the same why did you leave out Isaac from your list there? Why did you leave out Jacob?

    Of course the distinction comes much earlier in Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac is the son of the promise not Ishmael. Yet you believe otherwise. So the same God chose both to be the son (singular) of the promise?

    In my native Mexico, when people say “Dios” they mean the God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit. “El Padre, El Hijo y El Espiritu Santo.”

    Like I’ve said before, any religion which denies Jesus Christ as God, is misguided. Islam does not consider Jesus as God, therefore it is false. Throughout the Gospels He makes the claim that He is God. So either He’s lying (unlikely because He is sinless) or He’s delusional. What do you make of His claims to Deity? Do you think He was lying and thus deceitful? What do you make of Jesus’ claims? If true, then YHWH cannot be Allah.

    What do you make of the Holy Spirit being God? The Bible also makes this claim. You don’t believe that either so you still think we worship the same Being?

  25. jasonk says:

    I don’t want to get into a verbal battle with the Muslims, that’s for sure. I respect every individual’s right to believe whatever they want, and expect the same in return.

    But I cannot help but respond to Ms. Leslie’s criticism of the hypocrisy found in Christianity, a religion based on peace and love. As Laz pointed out, there is hypocrisy in Christianity, and none of us like it. We are not perfect, nor do we claim to be.

    But for you to oppose Christianity on the basis of some who are hypocritical would be the same as me condemning all Muslims based on the actions of a smaller number of other Muslims, who prefer to fly planes into buildings. And as they flew into those buildings, and murdered 3,000 innocent people, their last words were “There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His messenger.”

    We have hypocrites, but so do you.

  26. بدتمیز says:

    laz I dont mind Qur’aan being the last in your queu. I hope you live long enough to read the pile of books and then once in a life time you do read the Qur’aan just to see whether your belief that ALLAH is different than GOD or not.
    yes If your GOD is Jesus than ALLAH is a different GOD. but beside jesus there is one more GOD (you call him the father) thats the one muslims call Allah.
    You seem wise enough, tell me one thing you believe millions of millions peoples who say that jesus is GOD or Bible isnt fake. but you wouldnt even read another book (to prove it false) who too has millions of millions of supporter.
    you wanted us to read the bible now if we say that we have read it you would say that you still dont get it. on the other hand you dont get it jst becoz you wont read.
    millions and millions of muslims certify each day that Allah is the god of jesus and muhammad and all the other prophets you named in your discussion. pick any random muslim and ask they will certify it. (O course you are talking about “the father” not about the jesus)
    muslims have read the bible they have noticed a lot of things. they have been discussing with your preachers. why not read the Quraan to find something irrelevant and than claiming with some points that Quraan is false?

    jasonk there have been so many articles and video tapes have been published showing what was the reality about the plains and building. I wonder civilians were killed and no body would notice whether its 3rd world or america govs r the same.

  27. Laz says:

    My friend, in the Bible Jesus makes the claims that He is God. He forgives sins committed against other people, who but God alone can do that?

    You believe what the Quran says. The Quran was written by one man who claims Gabriel told him the final revelation. To believe one man’s testimony and make it the basis of your faith is most unwise. This is the same problem the Mormons have. They believe that Joseph Smith really heard from God through the angel Moroni. He also claimed he received the final revelation. Do you also believe what Joseph Smith said as you believe Mohammed? If not then you are inconsistent. Again, there is no need to read the writings of accursed men like Mohammed or Joseph Smith.

    You are willing to ignore your Creator’s command to obey His Son, Jesus Christ, so you can obey a man, Mohammed, who is dead and buried. God is 3 Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That you believe this is 3 gods is your problem. It’s not 3 gods but One. You have a mistaken view of God because it comes from a mistaken man, Mohammed who only viewed God as one person not 3. Most importantly Mohammed doesn’t regard Jesus as His Savior but just another prophet. In this he was sadly mistaken and as a result is paying the consequences in the afterlife.

    That is really the issue here. I believe what Jesus claimed you don’t. What are you going to do with what He says?

  28. jasonk says:

    And now we get to the heart of the matter. Blame the US government for the 9/11 attacks.

    Laz, you are not in a good natured debate with decent Muslim people, you are talking with people who have a deeper agenda than that.

  29. بدتمیز says:

    see you dont have even the slightest bit of (correct) information and still you claim about things you dont kno.
    quraan was not written by muhammad. was bible written by jesus? muhammad is mistaken but jesus cant be right? while moses was even before christ. so thats why jews r the real peoples becoz jesus is mistaken same as muhammad and the real person is moses?
    quraan is false becoz bible is true. is bible fake becoz torah is there?
    islam is somethin from a man who is dead n buried. so Christianity is from a man who had been slaughtered by its own nation while he couldnt even complete his mission and now he has to come back?
    Muslims made the most unwise decesion and made the teaching of one ma,n foundation of their faith. so did the christianity why to blame muslims while you have done so.
    Muhammad may be paying the consequences for not to believe in jesus as GOD or may be jesus is ashamed off what he has been painted as in the world.

    down the road there is a cathedral, i was there and a Christian boy aged between 20-25 asked the hight priest that sir if my brother does somethin agains the law than can i take the punishment for his sin. he said no. i asked him then why jesus did so. he again asked sir was it like the peoples did so and afterwards we made the story? he couldnt answer. the boy said that he read the bible and found a lot of irrelevant things he cant come up with a solution but to ask why there is something and than something all the way opposite to the first one.
    high priest said that yes in bible its written about Muhammad that he would come. can you tell me where it is. if you dont have it in your bible than your bible is fake and high priest’ bible is true. and if you do have written in your bible than be happy in your life and let the others b happy in theirs.
    the fun part is you ask others to read the bible but u dont tell which bible, jews have one torah, muslims have one quran but every church of yours have different version and different explanations.
    i am looking for the roman catholic because seem to me thats the oldest and most comprehensive church among others

    “God is 3 Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That you believe this is 3 gods is your problem. It’s not 3 gods but One.”

    high priest couldnt define this to that boy either. tell me how could you say that GOD is 3 persons and then you would say that GOD is one.

    i dont have any problem with any one’s believe. I want to stand with every person to worship GOD in wat so ever way thay r told to. the problem comes when rather than to worship, we start yelling off at each other, telling, that your way is wrong.

  30. Laz says:

    I know the Quran was not written by Mohammed, how can it be since he was illiterate? He did claim to have received the ‘revelation’ from Gabriel did he not?

    The Bible, my friend, was written by men under the direction of the Holy Spirit. It takes faith to believe that. What is amazing about the Bible is its cohesiveness. It all points to one Person, Jesus Christ. Even the Torah from it’s very 1st book points to Jesus Christ when it speaks of the seed of the woman triumphing over the serpent. The sacrificial system given to Moses is a precursor of the perfect sacrifice, Jesus Christ.

    Moses was a follower of God. He, like Abraham, looked forward to the day when sacrifices would no longer have to be made with animals for the forgiveness of sins, and when Jesus would utter “It is finished” while dying on the cross.

    There are Jews who have accepted Jesus as Messiah. It started with the 12 Apostles, they were all Jews. The Church was predominantly Jewish at the beginning. Jesus predicted that not all Jews would accept Him as Messiah. Sadly the ones that have not done so are still in steeped in sin and not worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The One True God.

    How do you know that Jesus didn’t complete His mission? I am living proof (as well as millions more) that He did. He was born, lived, taught, died, rose again and ascended. In doing so He sent the Holy Spirit to found His Church so that she would take the good news (or the gospel) of His resurrection to the world. The good news that He has conquered Death for it could not lay its hold on Him. This gives hope my friend. Hope that we don’t have to follow 5 pillars to please God. That we don’t have be religious to please God. There is nothing we can do to make ourselves right with God. The good news is that we don’t have to, Jesus paid the price for our moral bankruptcy. That was His mission and so it is accomplished.

    hat being said He will return one day in the future. When He does, it will be a joyous occasion for some and sheer terror who have rejected Him. I pray you find yourself in the first group.

    Christians have not made the teachings of one man our foundation. If that one man is God, how is that an error? Either He is God or He is not. He did not leave the ‘great prophet’ option open to us. A ‘great prophet’ would not go around teaching others that He is God in the flesh.

    There is no mention of Mohammed in the Bible. In Christianity we don’t have high priests either. If the Bible is the Word of God how can there be irrelevant things in there? I ask you if you are going to make such claims to please give specific examples.

    The Jews have the Torah you are correct. Guess what? When I open my Bible, guess what is in there? The Torah! I acknowledge the Torah as God’s Word, The Quran is another matter, they are the fantasies of one man, Mohammed as the Book of Mormon is the fantasies of Joseph Smith.

    The Catholic Church has its own problems. Mainly the fact that they allow their members to worship Mary. That is idolatry.

    The Bible clearly teaches that there is One God, yet all 3 persons are called God. Let me illustrate: Water can be found in 3 states, steam, liquid or ice. Yet they are all water are they not? Steam is water in gas form yet it is still H20 right? Ice is solid but it is still H20 correct?

    you are thinking 3 gods because 1+1+1=3
    I’m telling you it’s more like 1x1x1 =1

    The Trinity (1 God, 3 persons) is a profound doctrine that must be accepted by faith. The Bible is clear when it says there are some things we cannot understand, this is probably one of them.

    Please understand, I’m not yelling at anyone. I am just trying to help you see the Truth, that Jesus Christ is Lord.

    Of course, if you believe the United States was responsible for 9/11 then you are more deluded than I thought and must question your rationality.

  31. Ms. Leslie of Ferntucky says:

    Jason, I like what you said. It is true. Ask any Vietnam veteran if he wants to go back to Vietnam to live after being through hell there.

    Ask any Vietnam veteran if he has any prejudice towards the Vietamese….even just a tiny bit….or if he still has a gut wrenching feeling everytime he is served water by a Vietamese waiter. Perhaps wondering if the water might be poisoned….especially if he was a prisoner of war.

    Or better yet….ask the Vietnam veteran how he feels when denied benefits….but those benefits are given to a Vietnamese like free bags of rice, social security benefits, free business loans…etc.

    Don’t get me wrong….I personally love the Vietnamese people and their culture. I have also lived amongst the Vietnamese….and the Chinese. In fact after what happened to me, I wanted as far away from Americans as I could get….and white ones at that. I also know something about Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. I experience the same feelings with Christians and some scientists who were trained by the C.I.A. and the military. The Christians were busy trying to justify what had happened by fabricating the worst kind of personality profiling possible.

    My life was ruined due to what happened. What possibilities my life might have had were completely destroyed….by Christian operatives. Do you think I want to go live amongst them? That is easy, there is a resounding “NO” streaming through my conciousness right now as I type this. Do you think I want to go live with the military??? Again, a deep resounding negative there as well.

    We make broad sweeping generalizations….to be sure. I am guilty of it. We(as human beings) have a bad experience with a person and condemn everyone else with that particular trait or condition or background.

    Hitler had a difficult time with a few Jewish kids while he was growing up….and we all know what happened there…..almost total racial annihilation.

    All I know is that my heart that had been hardened so long by Christian law enforcement/military/operatives, melted when I met someone who showed me HIS God. There is a verse in the Qur’aan that stands out to me. Surah 25, Verse 29. “He indeed led me astray from the Reminder (this Qur’aan) after it had come to me. And Shaitan (Satan) is to man ever a deserter in the hour of need.”

    I was certainly deserted by Satan….and Satan had Christian followers. Quantum Physics never had so much controversy as that time.

    Yes, I am guilty of broad sweeping generalizations about the United States and Christianity. I know that there are good people out there with good intentions as well….in all religions, from all backgrounds, from all governments.

    I choose to follow Allah for personal reasons. Being shown understanding instead of hatred, for me, was like the mouse pulling out the thorn from the lion’s paw. Allah took some of the pain away, again to make life more bearable.

    To quote a military officer….”Heaven does not want me, Hell is too afraid I`ll take over.” If I am wrong then I am wrong. It is my choice. La ilaha illallah.

  32. Ms. Leslie of Ferntucky says:

    This is for Mr. Lazaro. Mr. Lazaro, there is evidence mounting that the so-called Muslim Al-Qaeda Terrorists had help by people within the United States. No delusion, believe me.

    Do you remember Pearl Harbor? Well, we knew far in advance of the Pearl Harbor attack…..in fact, we even gave the Japanese a sitting target….but too, we wanted the excuse to get rid of older technology for newer technology….so we sacrificed the few for the many. Want to know how I know? My Dad. My Dad was made purposefully late for Pearl Harbor. His ship sunk.

    BUT, interestingly enough….Pearl Harbor brought together the people of the United States who were in great division and dissent over the war and wanted the U.S. out of the war altogether. So, we provided a unifying force……the bombing of our homeland….the bombing of Pearl Harbor…..to not only bring people into agreement to further carry on the war….that they were indeed threatened by the Japanese which led to internment camps….and that we needed to start using newer technology.

    Let’s put it this way…..the Japanese had help.

    And another thing…..there was a genuine need for World War II. We needed to do what we did….however WWII was not without it’s scandal and controversies that will forever rage through history.

    History repeated itself.

  33. Ms. Leslie of Ferntucky says:

    After the ordeal I went through, there was a Catholic engineer who came to see me. He told me that “You knew more about the Quantum than what took us 40 years to even begin to understand.”

    There I was…devastated. My entire life lay before me in shambles….and the only thing this man could think about was his research and my place in that research. That research, gentlemen, was valued at $65 million by the U.S. Air Force. I nearly died….took me four years to physically heal but the emotional wounds are still there…and only recently…very recently have been softened up a bit by a man whose faith in Allah was unshakeable.

    I spent my life surrounded by engineers and physicists. I grappled with religions and philosophies to counter all the science in my life.

    What happened to me and to six other people who may have died was a travesty of justice. I had to let N.A.S.A. Ames know what had happened to me before they hired me, so it would not be thrown up into my face at a later date. They even said that what had happened to me was illegal. But where were my days in court? Where was the justice? Can I sue the Federal Government? Can I sue the military? NO, by law I cannot sue the government nor my military….only individuals within those organizations. And the I.R.S. made absolutely sure that never happened.

    Please do not tell me about God’s love for me. When my ordeal was done….I knew there could be absolutely no God. I was through with religion, with God, with scientists, with the United States Government. I went to the Soviet Embassy and pleaded for political asylum with my daughter and myself and one tiny suitcase. I figured that if I was going to be treated like I was living in the U.S.S.R. I might as well go there to live. It would at least be easier to be living somewhere knowing that my phones would be tapped….and not have to worry about Constitutional Rights in a country where there were none. At least I knew who the Enemy was. In Russia, the enemy might be everywhere….but in the good U.S. of A. the enemy was hidden….hiding in research labs, hiding in medical facilities, in educational facilities in Churches, in Government buildings, hiding out as friends, colleagues….long time associates.

    At least now, I have some peace. At least I know that there are still decent good people out there in the world.

    Remember…..all of you….this world is not what it seems. Political boundaries…governments…the chess board of life….may not be what you think it is. What unifying force we have is each other…and love…and acceptance. We are all interconnected…and what happens to one…happens to all.

    I am no saint…..but I am absolutely no where near what my government set me up to be either. I have my flaws…..but not flaws that would make me the target of weapons of mass destruction either.

    The people of Allah have shown me love….shown me kindness….shown me acceptance. If that is evil then so be it. Ask me if I would rather be around those who are saved and out there destroying the lives of innocent people or ask me if I want to be around those who have tolerated my anger, shown me love……well….I guess it is just another personality flaw in my character….the need and desire to be loved and cared about in a world gone totally crazy.

  34. Laz says:

    Les, obviously you have had a bad time. Before you go accusing Christians of horrible things please understand that not everyone who calls themselves “Christian” is truly following Jesus Christ. Can you get please understand that?

    If you want to get a grasp on what being Christian (it literally means ‘to follow Christ’)is about you must read Christ’s teachings. Where do you find these teachings? In the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John!

    Christian operatives? What are you talking about? Just because someone commits atrocities in ‘the name of Christ’ does not mean that they are following Christ. Christ commanded us to love God and to love our neighbor, how is committing atrocities fit into these 2 commands?

    Jesus doesn’t force anyone to follow Him. If you don’t want to follow Him you don’t have to but you will have to answer to Him.

  35. Laz says:

    People who claimed to be Muslims crashed airplanes into the WTC. End of story. What about the beheading of Nick Berg? You’re going to tell me his hooded murderers weren’t shouting praises to Allah as they cut his head off? I heard the tape, let me guess another fabrication of the CIA right? Better yet Berg was another operative right who deserved his fate?

    I don’t remember Pearl Harbor, I’m not yet 30 years old. Yes I’m sure the military wanted to dispose of it’s battleship fleet especially when they were considered the backbone of any navy in those days.
    It wasn’t until after Pearl Harbor that the aircraft carrier proved its worth.

    I’m sure the Japanese were goaded into attacking Pearl by the US government. I’m sure it wasn’t their desire to rule the world.

    Yes the Japanese had help. It was their Allies, the Germans and the Italians. The Axis Powers they were called…

    I still don’t know how we got from pig races to wacky conspiracy theories to quantum in 30 comments…

  36. بدتمیز says:

    quran, fantasies of Muhammad, an illiterate person came up with the kind of verses that he made 30 parts while still fantasizing and yet after 1500 years no body could produce a single fantasy of his kind.
    bible, fantasies of several persons over the years yet to believe that with each person’s fantasy they didn’t add up anything at all not a single word.
    yes my friend catholic is the oldest and if you dont want me to be on the rite way while followin catholic tell me which church should i be followin?
    well i dont have any problem with bible i dont have any urge to prove it false or fake. i m jst amazed that muslim and christians do blv in every thing and they dont agree in just one thing and that very thing make them to behave so childish.

    no sir i didnt blv it was US until i had seen so many videos and articles over the year and none of them was written by any muslim or from asia they were from here in US or from france and UK.

  37. Laz says:

    I’m not telling you to follow a church. I’m telling you to follow Jesus Christ. When you follow Jesus Christ you become part of His Church (that is the body of true believers).

    Mohammed’s vision is false for the simple reason that he denies Jesus’s Divinity. He denies Jesus’ death and resurrection. He denies Jesus’ role as the ultimate sacrifice that cleanses us from our sins. Like I told you before, the Torah, the Prophets, the Psalms, and the New Testament testify to this. The message of the entire Bible is that, Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and came to rescue humanity from their sins, why? Because God loved the world so.

    I get tired of saying this but I must say it once more: Muslims and Christians don’t believe in the same thing. Until Muslims accept that Jesus is God we will not believe in the same thing. I’m not going to convert you, that is the work of God the Holy Spirit, I can only tell you the Truth. You will accept it or reject it that is your choice.

    Your words have proven that you are very deluded about many things. Believing that those 22 Arab men were not responsible for 9/11 is just one more example of your deep delusion.

  38. freevolition says:

    Lazaro, if I may interject a thought… you have defended His Church most admirably in this discussion/debate in a very correct and doctrinal manner. Perhaps you feel obligated to respond to all nonbelievers due to the fact that this is your blog. However, when His words of grace and salvation have been offered and rejected perhaps it is time to knock the dust from your feet and move on.

  39. Laz says:

    Free, you are right. I have done my best to explain to my Muslim friends what Jesus Christ has done for them.

    I am not a perfect communicator but I believe I have adequately explained to you what Jesus Christ has done for humanity. You have both rejected His grace and salvation as evidenced by your obstinacy and misplaced trust in a false god given to you by a false prophet (Mohammed).

    I pray that you and others who reject Christ and His Grace will come to a saving knowledge of Him, for your souls’ sake. I also pray that those who are truly forgiven and born again come into contact with you that you may see what following Christ truly looks like. Thank you for contributions, good day.

  40. Ms. Leslie of Ferntucky says:

    I don’t remember Pearl Harbor either. I had not been born yet. In fact, I was born a decade and so, later. My father was a much older man. It was not just the battleships at Pearl, it was the airpower. All of our planes had been placed together strategically to be bombed.

    Churchill knew. The President knew. In my day when we studied history…this was common knowledge. Nowadays I am finding out that this is being taught as conspiracy theory. That figures. Anything where we have made a mistake is now a Conspiracy Theory and we are all being taught that all conspiracy theorists are “nuts”. So much for free thinking in a free society. I am still going to hold on to my first amendment rights however, as long as those last. I would not consider my father to be a wacked out conspiracy theorist either. He was an engineer who believed whole heartedly in his country. The fact is….he was delayed to Pearl Harbor. There are letters between him and the Secretary of Defense, or Secretary of the Navy, Admiral James Forrestal. There are diaries he kept. There are dictionaries with code written in them…..he was not whacked out. He read his Bible every single night for hours. He kept track of all the times he read the Bible through. He was a very troubled man after WWII because of all the secrets he kept. In fact, one of those secrets came knocking on my door a few years back. One of the men on his ship wanted someone to affirm the presence of Mustard Gas on board the ship they were on….and we all know the United States NEVER carried Mustard Gas. Apparently there was an accident on board one of my Dad’s ships. How do you think I feel in finding out the desperate need for help from one of my father’s crew members and my father, due to his patriotism for his country and absolute love for GOD and COUNTRY, turned his back on the VERY MEN running his ship? HOW DO YOU THINK I FELT?????? A man’s life had been destroyed by Mustard Gas and his family was pleading for help. This was just 5 years ago, when I was contacted by someone going over the Freedom of Information Act from WWII…and my Dad’s ship at that time was an LSM. The man even showed me my Dad’s logs from the ship. When you see your Dad’s signature on all of these papers….and it was his signature with no doubt in my mind….then it hurts.

    I can hardly wait to hear what history will say in 50 years about the World Trade Center. Ever look at those tapes very very closely? I would start freeze framing every millisecond of those videos. Did you know that people who had been at Ground Zero, some of them, were “debriefed”? Why did they need to be debriefed in a free society????

    I have no idea why what happened to Nick, happened. There have been such atrocities on both sides of the fence. I was looking through soldiers’ comments and some of them I was just amazed at. Especially with the killing of children. War is Hell. I guess anyone can justify anything if given all the proper motivations. Too, I know what it is like to become numb and without feeling. War does that. Being a Prisoner of War does that. War brings out the worst in humanity.

    We have religion to remind us that war is evil and something to be abstained from. War does nothing for humanity except for thinning out the population…and leaving scars on everyone it touches.

    As far as Muhammed our Prophet goes (Peace Be Upon Him) he may have been illiterate but he was not stupid. Einstein did not finish the 8th grade and had dyslexia but that did not stop him from E=MC2. In the Qur’aan there are some startling scientific facts. The Qur’aan was revealed 14 centuries ago but it mentions human embyonic development Surah 23, Verses 12 -14, Plate Tectonics Qur’aan 16, Verse 15, the origin of the Universe Surah 41 Verse 11, Surah 21 Verse 30, the Cerebrum Surah 96, Verses 15-16, Oceanography, Surah 55, Verses 19-20, Surah 25 Verse 53.

    Muhammed (Peace Be Upon Him) did really well, if he was having delusions from temporal lobe seizures.

    I mentioned the Quantum and the closed mindedness of those in religion towards the new sciences because it destroyed my life. That is what brought me to Islam. I thought I would share that with you. Otherwise please forget I ever mentioned it.

    The age old fighting between the Church (especially the Vatican)and Science still rages on….there were many scientists tortured by the Vatican….if the Vatican says the world is flat….then it has be flat or the Center of the Universe. No matter what. That is what power does. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Nowadays though the Vatican has it’s own scientists.

    Too, I wanted you to know my intentions were pure when I decided to become Muslim. No one likes to spend a lifetime in hatred and prejudice. I sure didn’t. I want to be where I am loved and appreciated. Who doesn’t?

    Too as becoming Muslim, I am NOT supporting Terrorism. I have been the subject of Terrorism within the boundaries of my OWN country…..much less anyone elses’and the terrorists I was subjected to, were military and civilian, religious and self righteous. I know what Terrorism is, as I have been the target of Terrorism. I do not support Terrorism, no matter from which country it comes from.

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